Stair Section Detail Level in Revit

Here is yet another problem with Revit Stairs that really needs to be fixed by Autodesk:  

The view 'Detail Level' display in section is not consistent between walls, floors and stairs (not to mention ramps!):

View Detail Level

When a view is set to Medium or Fine detail level, sections of most categories display the correct materials:

When the View detail level is set to 'Coarse', the cut hatching display of some elements is overridden by the Type properties 'Coarse Scale Fill Pattern'

This capability is available only for certain categories - meaning that the display of stairs is pretty hopeless at Coarse scale

 

Workarounds

What to do about this?  There are several possible ways to resolve this lack in Revit, but none is very good!

Visibility Graphics

You can over-ride the cut pattern of stairs - but this requires several steps (excuse the pun) on top of just changing one View Detail Level setting:

Due to the fiddly nature of changing this in the view (similar settings may need to be applied to other categories), you would certainly need to include this as part of a View Template - so it could be applied or removed at the flick of a switch.

Filters

You could also try using a View Filter, as it could potentially be applied to multiple categories

This has an advantage in that it is more "discoverable" than searching through all the category overrides - unless you have a gazillion filters applied!

Another advantage in Revit 2021 is the ability to "Enable" or "Disable" the filter without losing the override settings - a very useful new enhancement for Filters.

Downsides

The View Detail Level is very easy to switch on/off - and it affects all categories that have the built-in Coarse Scale override capability.  If you set the view back to Medium, the 'by category' cut pattern overrides get left behind - so you would need another operation to remove those (hence the need to use View Templates).

Another problem with the Visibility Graphics workarounds is what happens when you choose anything other than black solid fill as your hatching override:

If you make it grey . . .

 

The Stairs will show the joint lines between different materials - you may or may not want this, but it is clearly different behaviour to the Coarse Detail Level control that hides the material join lines and treats it as one material, for a nice clean look.

Of course, this is not helped by the inability to join walls/floors to Stairs !!  You still get the joint lines between those.  Refer to Stair Joint Lines

The Worst Workaround

Filled Regions are extremely useful for patching up Revit's inadequacies, but they are not popular with BIM & Model Managers because they cause so many other problems as soon as a model changes.

Filled Regions allow you to make the hatching look exactly how you want, because they allow some of their edges to be "Invisible Lines" - thus they can appear to join with adjacent "real' cut hatching.

Filled regions are placed per view, so if you have multiple sections cutting through the same or similar parts of the model you may end up with many filled regions.

One possible method to manage that problem is to include them in 'Detail Groups' - but they are also problematic to manage, not to mention a major shortcoming of really slowing down your Revit model if you have too many of them.

Conclusion

Whichever workaround you use the most important thing to do is to follow company standard procedures - and be consistent.  Agree with your workmates on which dodgy workaround to use, and stick to it.  This will make it so much easier to come back to make changes when the model is updated.

Which Kind of Callout to Use in Revit

Previously I have written about some of the limitations and inconsistencies with Revit Callouts:

• Weird rules for 'Reference Other View' Callouts
  

• Weird rules for Real Callouts

• Callout Crop-Boundary Mismatch

• Detail Plan Callout Views & Stair Path Arrows

• 3D Stair Plans in Detail Views

• Reference Label

There are some strange and frustrating restrictions, which mean you need to carefully plan how to manage Callouts.

Here I am going to describe the different ways to make Callouts in Revit, and propose a method of working that is different to the way Revit was designed, and probably different to how you use them.

Which Kind of Callout to Use?

1. Real Callout

The standard ‘Callout’ command places a rectangle defining the callout view extents. This will create a new view, and place the view reference rectangle on the active view. For reasons listed below, this method is not preferred.

• You cannot change the reference.

• You cannot move the callout to a different parent view.

• You cannot change the callout view family between Plan/Detail (Plans only).

• The callout rectangle can be stretched or rotated in the parent view – this will make the same change of extents or rotation to the callout view itself, which is not always desirable.

• You cannot have the callout extents slightly different on the parent view (to make callouts readable) - they have to match the view cropping exactly.  Refer to Callout Crop-Boundary Mismatch.

• If you copy and paste a Callout it creates an entirely new view with a different reference.

For more information see rules for Real Callouts

2. Reference Other View

Reference Other View Callouts can be created by:

• Create a view to be referenced by the callout – eg. duplicate another view and crop it

• Make sure the view is cropped (unless it is a drafting view).
  

• On the view to place the callout, select the ‘Callout’ command, then select ‘Reference Other View’, and select a relevant view name from the drop-down menu

This method has many advantages:

• Callouts can be moved to another view
• Callout references can be changed to refer to different view
• References will update if the view/sheet number is changed
  
• Callouts can be copied to another parent view

It also has a few disadvantages:

• It is possible for the user to select the wrong view in the list - there is no automatic check for this.
  
• If you want to have "Sim" showing on a callout for similar details on multiple callouts, that is a Type property of the view being referred to, not a property of the callout symbol. 
  
• That means it is all or nothing - ie. all instances of the callout must have "Sim" or not. 
  
• It also changes the view type so it may move in your project browser, depending on your browser organistion.
• You have to manually create each callout view (by Duplicate or Duplicate Dependent); then crop that view - this is a small price to pay for the benefits.
• You could probably automate this using Dynamo.
  

For more information see rules for 'Reference Other View' Callouts

3. Intersecting Views

Section callout symbols can be created automatically by Revit in section views – this occurs when one section has its extents completely within the larger section (both crop boundaries and clipping extents).
I would not recommend trying to use this method:

• It is very confusing for users - it is better to stick with one Callout method for consistency.
  

• Such callout sections may appear/disappear as view extents change

4. Fake Callouts 

Last and very much least, is a method that you should never, never use - but I've seen it often.

Fake (or dummy) view callout references can be made out of detail components or detail lines and text. This is very bad practice:

• These may look like genuine Callouts, so people may not check the references. 
  

• References will not update if view/sheets are changed.

• This is totally against everything that Revit is trying to do!

Workflow Opinions

The following are my recommendations for working with Callouts in Revit.  Please note that these are opinions only - it is up to you to look at all the reasons I have given, and make up your own mind about this.  I accept no blame if it does not work for you.

One: All Callouts by 'Reference Other View'

Use method 2 (Reference Other View) for every single callout in your project.

If you never use methods 1 (Real Callouts), 3 (Intersecting Views), 4 (Fake Callouts), you will ensure consistency and will avoid most of the problems related to Callouts.

Two: Do Not Use Detail Views

Avoid using the Revit view family of 'Detail Views' - these have so many limitations and quirks, it is just not worth it.  Always use Plan views or Section views.  Refer to Detail Plan Callout Views

NB. If you follow the first recommendation above, this will not be an issue because it is only possible to create new detail views by Real Callouts.

Three: No Fakes

Never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never use method  4 (Fake/dummy Callouts).  It is much quicker and safer to use 'Reference Other View' callouts.

Anyone who does this in Revit should not be using Revit at all !

Reference Label

There is one problem with using only 'Reference Other View' - refer to 'Reference Label'

Feedback

I would be very interested to hear whether anyone has different (or the same) opinions about using Callouts - feel free to comment.

Weird Callout Behaviour in Revit

A few months back I wrote about some of the weird rules for Revit Callouts when you use the 'Reference Other View' option.

There are some strange and frustrating restrictions, which mean you need to plan carefully about what view types/families to use for callouts, and in fact for any views.

There are also some weird restrictions in how Callouts work when you don't use 'Reference Other View' - I refer to those as "Real Callouts".  I am going to record those here.

Stop and Think - Which Parent View?

Before placing any "Real Callouts",  stop and think about which view you want to place the callout on - you should already have a good plan for how your drawing set referencing is going to work.

The reason for this is that once you place a Real Callout on a view, it does two things:

• It creates a new view that is automatically cropped to the extents of the callout that you just created.
• It places the callout element on your view - typically a dashed line rectangle with a circular reference bubble.

It is  really important to know that once you place a Real Callout on a particular view, it can never be moved to another parent view.

The only workarounds are:

• Start from scratch - delete the callout + view, which means losing all your annotation and any other reference callouts to that view.
• Hide the callout on the parent view, and make a Reference Callout on another parent view.  This means that the old parent view can never be deleted - you would lose the callout view (refer to Deleting Callouts below). 
  This is a last resort workaround that I would not recommend.

Callout View Families

Detail Views vs Plan Views

The first issue to watch out for when creating Real Callouts is which view type you select (or don't select if you just accept the default).  For plan callouts you have two family options (and then choices of any view types that you have created):

• Detail Views
• Floor Plan Views

The really important thing to know here is that once you have made a decision between Detail or Floor Plan family, you can never change your mind - the families are not interchangeable.

View types are changeable - so you can change a callout from one plan view type to another plan view (but not to a Detail view).

Once you have chosen a callout view family/type, there are many weird and inconsistent rules about which view families can be referenced to and from callouts - refer to weird rules for Revit Callouts for 'Reference Other View'

For those and other reasons, I normally try to avoid using Detail views at all in Revit - see more reasons below, and refer to Weird Stair Path Stuff.

Detail Views vs Section Views

When creating Section view Callouts you also have two family options (and then choices of any view types that you have created):

• Detail Views
• Section Views

Unlike plan details, section details can be changed to normal section views - this is inconsistent, although it is welcome not to have that restriction.

 

Weird Detail View Behaviour

Detail views behave quite differently to other view types:

• Plan and Section views are typically grouped together in the project browser - it does not distinguish between them.  This can be confusing when searching for views.

• Detail views can be rotated in section (or elevation) from a vertical (section) orientation to a plan orientation.  If you know what you are doing you can use this to your advantage - but is not advised for inexperienced users.  It will most likely cause much confusion.

• When creating Real Callouts from a Detail view, they can only be another detail view.

• Stairs and railings are displayed as cut 3D models (wherever the view cutting plane is), rather than the Revit conventional 2D representation on other plan views - refer to True 3D Stair View in RCP.

• Symbols nested into families (such as electical fittings - switches, power outlets) are not visible in Detail views.

• Section and Plan Detail Callouts have the ability to set the depth of view the same as the parent view or independently - however, the controls are by 'Far Clip Offset' for both section and plan, not by view range.

Plan Detail Views

Plan Detail views have special rules (different to Section Details):

• Plan Detail Views don't allow Stair Path Arrows -  refer to Weird Stair Path Stuff.

For Plan Detail views, the callouts are generally only visible in the views they are placed on, with one exception:

• There is a ‘Show In’ property that can override this behaviour

• Plan callout views are normally set to Show In ‘Parent View Only’ 

• If this is changed to ‘Intersecting Views’ then the callout can potentially be visible in other plans within the same view range (thus behaving more like section detail callouts) - be warned, this will confuse the heck out of most Revit users.

• Be aware that ‘Intersecting Views’ detail plan callouts can also be visible in sections – they may appear as a line or with a reference head depending on the properties of the plan view

Section Detail Views

Section Detail callout views are potentially visible in section views other than their parent view.  They behave as if they have a hard-coded 'Show in Intersecting Views' property.  They might be visible under the following conditions:

• The callout view crop boundary is wholly within the crop boundary of the other section view
• The callout view section line is within the Clipping Distance of the other section view
• There are no other scale-related, category visibility or filters hiding them. 

Duplicating Views

• If you copy and paste a real callout, it actually creates a new view (and new callout).  In most cases this is not especially useful, as you are more likely to want the same reference to the original callout view - in which case it would need to be a 'Reference Other View' callout.

• If you copy a parent view by ‘Duplicate with Detailing’ it creates a new view for each callout – each would have a different reference on the duplicatd parent view. 

Deleting Views

• If you delete a parent view (plan or section), it will automatically delete any callouts placed on that view, and the callout views - although it does prompt you with a warning that it will delete those views.
• There is no way around this because once a callout is placed on a particular view, it cannot be moved to another parent view.
• This is a major drawback to using callouts in Revit.

Next Time . . .

In addition to the issues above, there is a limitation on not being able to have a callout rectangle that is slightly larger than the crop region of the callout view - thus making your drawings messy and hard to read.  Refer to Callout crop boundary mismatch

In the next blog post on this subject I will suggest an alternative working method that avoids some of these pitfalls and inconsistencies.

If you can remember all these rules and exceptions, congratulations!  Try remembering them again in a few months time.